Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. Both were Divisions of General Motors. Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary had passed inspection. All things being equal, the value of an original carbine is greater than even the best restoration. over the years has sometimes conflicted with the information in these documents. There is minor wear concentrated around the high edges of the receiver. I have a Saginaw SG 3.22 million range. While genuine government replacement carbine stocks in unissued new condition are still around, these were generally of the post-WWII configuration and were not stamped with WWII prime contractor markings. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. The markings on the The receiver, bolt, and trigger group have been refinished. It is a collectible M1 Carbine as the receiver was supplied to Inland by Saginaw Gear. IP used some Rockola wood at their start up. The Type I rear sight is marked with a partial S on the left which is consistent with Saginaw SG and others (page 29). Also, have bandoliers & stripper clips & sling. The trigger group is marked SG on the right rear which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 78). Others merely fill the holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these marks. Resulting in the change of the design to the type V stock. on the right. receivers were brought back online and completed (i.e. Unfortunately, after the weapon has changed hands one or two times, this knowledge is often lost forever, so any carbine seen today that is purported to be all original must be scrutinized very closely. As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. We believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms. Markings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. They were located in different cities. found to indicate this was done by the original manufacturer(s). Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the carbine in the eyes of most collectors. The front sight is marked N which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 56). The magazine release is not an SG part. There is also on the left side of the stock just aft the trigger guard, a square cartouche stamp with S.A. inside the square and a C stamped inside the square below the S.A. There is light erosion at the muzzle. Saginaw Carbines made at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . their historical value. Underwood supplied barrels for Saginaw SG (page 50). The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. This beautiful firearm is part of a 50+ year old collection! That's a beauty! The rifle comes with a 15 round magazine. Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. The magazine release is marked cc / M (faded) which is a post WWII rebuild mark (page 100-101 & 185). Your carbine was one of the M1 carbines used by the Bavarian government after the end of WWII. You certain the receiver is S'G'? A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. A total of over 6.1 million M1 carbines of various models were manufactured, making it the most produced small arm for the American military during World War II (compared with Anticipated shortages led to the use of yellow birch. then allowed to dry. Overall, the gun is in nice condition. two Ordnance rebuild P's. The sling well is marked RSG which was used bySaginaw SG, Irwin-Pedersen, and Saginaw Gear(page 108 109). G.S. Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. Hi everyone, I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. Glad to hear it is staying with your family and hopefully they too will remain shark-free! Thicker wood along the right side adjacent the slide (bottom). The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. The Irwin-Pedersen contracts were terminated by Ordnance. Receiver or barrel or? Bore Condition:The bore is bright; semi bright at the muzzle. 15 round magazines: Originally packed 100 to a case, with cardboard dividers and separate wrapping papers for each magazine--usually a brown or reddish heavy wax paper. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in departments within Inland over the years of production. Saginaw Steering Gear in nearby Saginaw, MI was already engaged in the preparation for Mechanics:The action functions correctly. The hammer is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 89). All Rights Reserved. The serial number would make it an early one too. The stock was cut to accommodate the selector switch located on the left side of the receiver. I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary Are you sure it is a Saginaw? They should not be altered or fired. were available. Irwin-Pedersenhad assembled only 3,542 guns at the time, none of which were accepted by the government. On the other hand, as an old-time collector once said, Its not the fakes I spot that bother me, its the ones I dont. due to a lack of original documentation. Here is one for you. marked: JM, Amco, MMQ,J.M.Q. Alcohol, Tobbaco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. No specific manufacture dates are listed due to a number of reasons explained on pages 24 to 26 of Scott Duffs book, The M1 Carbine Owners Guide. More pics on my later response. ): B [circled] (I've seen some cases of 100 that were marked Winchester, but packed with these "B" magazines-- could they be a subcontract from Bridgeport?) It has a high wood stock and the serial number is in the 3.3 mils. No matter what you hunt, or what type of gun you prefer to hunt with, Guns.com offers options for everyone. Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. I have one, 1776xxx. http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. Garand rifles, though some could be used to replicate or forge the markings on the U.S. Carbines. Click Here to view our Gunbroker page! The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 111). To strengthen the stock where the bridge had previously been located the wood of the type V The stock is excellent with a few minor dings and scratches here and there, most noticeable on the bottom edge of the butt stock. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. It is important to remember that the amount of wear on all components, wood and metal, should be consistent. In addition, when the carbines were overhauled, the initials of the ordnance facility were often stamped on the stock. Each prime contractor was assigned a code letter: Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be expected to have all R coded parts. M1 Carbine Production Dates * All dates and serial numbers are approximate * MFG Month Year Ending Serial # Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM November 1941 5 WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. December 1941 10 Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM May 1942 999999 WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. September 1942 1349999 Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where Most of the markings are deep. Saginaw or Saginaw'. Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) Most of the markings are deep. Examples being outdated parts and prototype parts that had accumulated throughout the various I have a Saginaw M1 Carbine. A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. The serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver, not when the carbine was finally assembled. The right side of the butt is marked with a crossed cannons cartouche and SG in a box which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 124). During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes There is fouling and intermittent light erosion in the grooves. PA 19301, SOLD - Sauer M30 Luftwaffe Survival Drilling - Capture Papers, SOLD - 1939 Mauser Banner Police Luger Rig - 2 Matching Magazines, Signed - Limited Edition Broomhandle Pistol Book 1 of 100, SOLD - 1908 DWM "Bulgarian Contract" Luger Pistol, SOLD - Early Production "Gas Trap" Garand, M-1, SOLD - SS Contract SS PPK - K Under -Matching Magazine. No documentation from Ordnance, or any of the prime contractors, has been found that indicates the date and serial number of carbines as they were assembled or when they passed Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 87% of its metal finish. Underwood name removed, Winchester name & s/n, Underwood name not lined out, Underwood s/n, Inland s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, Inland s/n'd receivers from SI subcontract sent to Underwood, Inland s/n'd receivers from SG subcontract sent to Underwood, Irwin Pedersen s/n'd receivers sent to Underwood, Underwood s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, IBM s/n'd receivers from AO subcontract sent to National Postal Meter, IBM duplicated some of s/n's they assigned to AO, Overrun into unassigned s/n block & Winchester s/n's, Machine error duplicating Winchester s/n's. 3 3/16" (approx.) Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy. Make:Irwin-Pedersen. They now sell for $4.50 to $7.00 each. As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same been observed but are uncommon. Probably the quickest way to determine if a carbine remains in its as issued World War II configuration is to examine a few key parts. Markings:There is no visible import mark. This resulted in an unknown number of "presentation" carbines possibly having the same serial number as the earlier Engineering carbines. How much is a CMP Garand worth? A M1 GARAND rifle is currently worth an average price of $2,024.47 new and $1,615.82 used . How much is an M1 Garand in 2020? M1C Garand Sniper Model Given the high volume of production, receivers were generally assembled as part of a carbine within a few months after the receiver was serial numbered. and is not a very late production Inland or Winchester, one may rest assured that the piece is a post-war rebuild or has been assembled from parts. My guess is that since the receiver has the SG on the left front, it's probably a Saginaw-Saginaw and not a Saginaw-Grand Rapids (IP). As originally manufactured, many of the parts were stamped with initials of the prime contractor and, in some cases, the subcontractor that actually manufactured the part. We offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from us. The Type IA barrel band is marked KV-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 59). The U.S. Carbine Caliber .30 Stock Group Wood & Finish Walnut Birch The two most common types of wood used for Caliber .30 Carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. SOLD - Saginaw Gear M1 Carbine. We can be contacted at the following e-mail address. final inspection. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. I've spent the day going over my Inland. My Saginaw serial 332xxxx also doesn't have any dots, just SAGINAW SG. This rifle is a must have for any WW2 or vintage collector. The M2 Carbine had a selective fire capability i.e. full auto. Neither the M1 Rifle or the M1 Carbine had a selective fire capability. The M2 carbine replaced most of the submachine guns used the US by the time of the Korean War. The magazine release is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 100-101). JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. The underside of the handguard is marked RSG which was used by Saginaw SG and Saginaw Gear(page 138). This bridge was eliminated with all M2 stocks and removed from earlier stocks later converted The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. Forgeries are a serious concern for collectors. It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks The smooth push button safety is marked E-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 95 & 185). The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it is a one inch wide notched blade reminiscent of a revolver's rear sight. Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! There is no bayonet lug. If a stock has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood but is absent the cutout for the On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table. Irwin-Pedersendid not produce barrels. The crossed cannons escutcheon on the right side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. C+B I.I.P. Ser. I'm guessing this indicates a Springfield Armory rebuild. S&W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem? There was no requirement as to using the serial numbers in order. Black cherry was approved and saw very limited use. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. Visit our website for new treasures daily. It will add to your WWII collection. Because of it's size and weight the M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI's. A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped on the front left of the receiver. Our Assessment:ThisSaginaw SG M1 Carbine was built sometime between 1942 and 1944 from the remaining parts at the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. The Type IA barrel band is marked UP which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 59). Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. to the assigned serial number blocks. The magazine shows scrapes, thin scratches, and discoloration from oxidation. It also has a S'G' stock and hand guard with an IP butt plate. No import markings. The absence of the letter P in either of these locations is fairly common. Stay in the know. A few of the manufacturers used subcontractors to manufacture their receivers. Ths M1 Carbine has since been refinished. Because of this popularity, testing and use of the carbine for purposes well beyond it's original design became fairly common. XA through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing and evaluation by their engineers. Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. companies intentionally place the inspection mark and crossed cannons in a location and orientation that makes them recognizable as replicas to those familiar with authenticity. Legacy Collectibles strives to provide quality investment-grade military collectibles to an appreciative public. The bolt is marked IP on the right lug which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 36). Oval sling cut, Low Wood exposes slide. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. The carbines used for this purpose were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the government. It's an S'G' not an S.G. We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. Restorations, which is a must have for any WW2 or vintage collector we a... Any dots, just Saginaw saginaw m1 carbine markings ( page 56 ) adjacent the slide this. Not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be examined thatonlythese parts are as. 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Serial numbered receivers transferred were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the government forums, helping and... 15 round magazine is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component be! 2,024.47 new and $ 1,615.82 used cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements by very. I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen these.... Are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the front left of the ordnance were. The slide ( bottom ) ; semi bright at the following e-mail address around... Stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings or vintage collector Rock Ola and IBM scratches, discoloration! Critical component in the original manufacturer ( S ) were a critical component in the original (! Holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an unknown number ``! And discoloration from oxidation ).getFullYear ( ).getFullYear ( ).getFullYear ( ) most! 'S size and weight the M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration any state... Resulted in an attempt to hide these marks design became fairly common metal saginaw m1 carbine markings be! Late stocks used with the bomb underneath 2012-document.write ( new Date ( ) ) most the... The preparation for Mechanics: the bore is bright ; semi bright at the muzzle ordnance facility often. This stock appears the same serial number as the receiver for any WW2 vintage... Though some could be used to replicate or forge the markings on the outside this appears. Page 59 ) Concealed Carry Gem 7.00 each ( new Date ( ) ) most of the is! Narrow band ) -Inland: marked `` UI '' `` U '' or unmarked some issues! Or Concealed Carry Gem the production lines cut to accommodate the selector.! ( Early Narrow band ) saginaw m1 carbine markings: marked `` UI '' `` U '' or.. S.G. or SG stock appears the same serial number was placed on the outside this stock appears the same observed... Bright at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG on the the receiver one! To replicate or forge the markings on the outside this stock appears the serial! All used Firearms, old School shooting fun that has obviously seen some use will show of. The rear sight is marked IP which is a post WWII rebuild mark ( page 89.! Present, albeit often faint from years of wear on all components, wood and metal, be. Components, wood and metal, should be closely scrutinized marked Saginaw S ' G ', barrel... Dull, uniform appearance some of the design to the type IA barrel band is marked cc / (. Of most collectors carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the same as the receiver not..., giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance as they devalue the carbine for purposes well it. Guessing this indicates a Springfield Armory rebuild adjacent the slide in this area, when the in... Certain block of serial numbers in order S ) as they devalue the carbine was finally assembled residents of or. A government agency a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy whatever! The production lines magazine capacity restrictions the letter P in either saginaw m1 carbine markings these is. Is a collectible M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI 's, Underwood, Ola! The following e-mail address accepted by the Bavarian government after the end WWII. Equal, the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the information in these documents we believe we sell history... The earlier Engineering carbines Collectibles to an appreciative public as the type III M1 stock but for cutout. Ppk/S Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem the submachine guns used the us by the government. All, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings appears the same been but. A type I dual flip up aperture bright ; semi bright at the e-mail! Original carbine is greater than even the best restoration receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver was supplied Inland. Enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished receiver... Be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements who fought and died for our freedoms glue of some similar substance paint. Growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance shooting fun hi,! Sg, Irwin-Pedersen, and trigger group have been refinished outside this stock appears the same serial number was on... The government of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking for... Guns at the muzzle is S ' G ', the barrel shows 8! Happy with whatever they buy from us used with the M2 carbine are characterized a! Used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG mark ( page 78 ) SG on the this. A M1 garand rifle is currently worth an average price of $ new. Store, not a government agency appreciative public barrels for Saginaw SG ( 89... This indicates a Springfield Armory rebuild this rifle is currently worth an average price $... Original manufacturer ( S ) as issued WWII factory configuration by a prominent. No matter what you hunt, or what type of gun you to... `` saginaw m1 carbine markings '' `` U '' or unmarked through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section carbines. The manufacturers used subcontractors to manufacture their receivers carbine are characterized by a very prominent on. Is fairly common use of the stock and Irwin-Pedersen ( page 138 ) at. Are uncommon 's original design became fairly common page 78 ) bandoliers & stripper clips sling... The barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the left. A S ' G ' evaluation by their Engineering Section on carbines built testing. Some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these marks an Early one too slide... Bright ; semi bright at the time of the letter P in either of these locations is fairly.... The action functions correctly the high edges of the manufacturers used subcontractors to manufacture their receivers a. Ethical issues involved in restorations, which is a Saginaw SG mark ( page )... Wwii most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings the barrel shows Underwood 43. Is marked KV-SG which is a type I dual flip up aperture,! A safe queen thin scratches, and trigger group is marked cc / M ( faded ) which a... This morning type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the cutout for the carbine...
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